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Betas = Editors

  • Feb. 22nd, 2008 at 1:56 PM
tezuka - lonely flower - default
On Betas
Inspired by a post by [info]mmorpgsforlife. When you think of a beta, what do you think of? Copy editing has its place, but what the writing world (and most writers need/crave) are good editors. We call them good betas, here in the world of fanfiction.

There will always be a need for helpful editors. I could always use another person in my beta pool, but to be honest I don't need copy editing from my betas. I don't use spellcheck etc either--that's the the absolute basics of writing. Think Zaizen. It's rare that my betas will have to say, "That dangling modifier doesn't belong," or "You should use 'their' instead of 'they're'." I have all that, and I don't want to waste my betas' time with trivial matters like spelling errors. They do happen, but that's not what I have betas for.

What I do ask of my betas is honest negative criticism. "X doesn't work because Y or Z." "You said A earlier, and now B and C, but if you do that then D happens which throws a spanner into the works." "Ai, this is wangst." "That sounds/feels/is OOC." "Was that character cut out from cardboard?" "This concept is totally unclear." "I don't know ... something here doesn't work, but I can't put my finger on why." "Been there, done that, you can do so much better."

I have concept betas who discuss the meta and argue with me over world details and plausibility, who take a look at a general idea and go "Ew" or "Write it!", or ask me more questions when I'm being vague. Some of my concept betas are basically the bunny assassins, who read my bunny-bits on [info]ann_applecore and veto the horrible ones or the stupid ones. We won't mention that monstrosity involving an American ex-president. Some of them go further by discussing the bunnies with me and adding their ideas/comments/suggestions, or by being a sounding board and asking the right questions ("Why did the war start?"). Some just act as enablers and feed their favorite bunnies with lots of carrots, as was the case with Dragons of the Rising Sun. ^_^;

Then, I have narrative betas who read the story once a first draft is written. They tell me when X character has moved into OOC territory or if something about a character is off ("That's far too wordy for Sanada! Ew!"). They also tell me if it's boring, if the pacing is wonky, if I have succumbed to the horrible Infodump Syndrome, if it's Just Not Working. Most of the time when the story gets to the narrative beta stage, I already have a specific problem and/or questions lined up for them. "I don't like the feel of this scene, but I can't figure out why. Help!" "Read this and tell me what the atmosphere you're picking up is like?" "I've gone over this one ten times now, but Yukimura still feels a little off to me, and I'm ready to consign him to the depths of hell!"

Some of my betas are stage-specific, and some of them do whatever I ask (and then some--most notably supporting and propping me up when I'm ready to give up *hearts you all*). All my betas have insights that differ from my own. It's great when I get people who reassure me that X or Y looks great. It's even better when after a bit (or a lot) of argument both me and my beta(s) read through what has emerged from the fire and say, "Perfect!"

Considering how much involvement I ask of my betas, I do my best to spread out the load and not bother the same people too much, though it sometimes happens that way. And yes, if I beta your work, depending on what stage you're in, that is what you get. The ideal process is a conversation between my betas and myself, where I write until we're all satisfied. If there are fundamental differences in how the writer and beta(s) view characters, though, it's unlikely a successful beta-ing arrangement can be set up, because when one disagrees on characterization, there are so many side-disagreements that stem from the disconnect that there is no point going on.

Finally, after all that, readers (final betas who aren't really betas but at the same time still are) comment and tell me what worked for them and what didn't. And that gets picked up and put into my mind for the next round.

^_^;;; Wow. That was long. Sorry Sparky, that was a bit of TL;DR. But when one sees the opportunity to tell things from this side of the fence, it's so very hard to resist that soapbox ...

ETA: I have to hasten to say that this is only true for me! O_o I don't know how other writers do this. I know one writer I beta for, [info]ontogenesis, has a slightly different process from me. She thinks a lot more about her plot and characters before she even comes to me, and sometimes she just shows up with a few thousand words and goes, "Okay, your turn." However, I'm a very conversational type of writer. I don't write in isolation. I've tried it, and I can't--I fail horribly when that happens. Like I said, this is my point of view from my side of the fence. ^_^ That's all.

Also, I have to emphasize that not all my fics get this treatment. ^_^;;; For example, Tohoku was very much a mostly-narrative-beta sort of fic. Caramel took a LOT of concept-beta-ing, but minimal narrative-beta. His Grandfather's Dragon was very much a mash that needed a lot of narrative work and scrutiny, but Promise was so short nothing much was changed after the first draft hammered out. (There was another one for the Dragons AU that came out to a draft of 1000+ words. It did not survive beta and died.)

Comments

[info]racketglomps wrote:
Feb. 22nd, 2008 05:20 am (UTC)
I feel you, Ai. I don't have many people who will look over my writing for me, and it's even harder to find someone who's GOOD at looking over writing. *sigh*
[info]aiwritingfic wrote:
Feb. 22nd, 2008 05:44 am (UTC)
*petpets* It's difficult to find. And as I hear often, "Good writers aren't often good betas, and vice versa."
[info]racketglomps wrote:
Feb. 22nd, 2008 06:03 am (UTC)
I can't say I'm much of a beta myself. I get a bit nervous if someone asks me to look over their fic, and I freak out because I'm not always sure what they want to hear and such.

However, I envy you a little bit. I don't really have many people to talk about fic ideas with, and that saddens me at times since I do like to discuss fic ideas sometimes. Although, I always worry if talking about fic ideas make me sound kinda pretentious or something. *sigh*
[info]aiwritingfic wrote:
Feb. 22nd, 2008 06:12 am (UTC)
*laughs* I always worry. There is literally no one around to talk to sometimes, and it can be a really solitary effort that disheartens more than anything else. Luckily for me, many of the people I know are also writers (I've met so many in fandom!), and I've been VERY lucky in meeting [info]ontogenesis, who also lives in Tokyo and delights in discussing fic and meta as much as I do.

I think that if you have to worry about whether the person will take the crit well, then the relationship isn't there yet. I beg my betas. "Sock it to me! I can take it!" "Are you sure there's nothing wrong? REALLY?" "Oh god Tezuka sucks. Gah I have to fix him. Kick me again--any more points?"
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[info]mmorpgsforlife wrote:
Feb. 22nd, 2008 05:52 am (UTC)
Hmmm, very helpful and insightful. Thanks Ai-pod =)

I think I'd be more useful as a narrative beta. I'm afraid coming up with new concepts has never been my strong point See the lack of plot for Shinji/Tezuka log for further evidence

If you'll have me, of course =)
[info]aiwritingfic wrote:
Feb. 22nd, 2008 05:55 am (UTC)
Not a problem. If you want, I'll add you to the Planeswalker filter (you can get to it from the entry over at [info]apples_for_me). I can add you to [info]ann_applecore if you're interested (aren't you already on the bunny assassin group?).
[info]mmorpgsforlife wrote:
Feb. 22nd, 2008 05:57 am (UTC)
Sounds good. Thanks =)

And I'm pretty sure I'm not in any group.
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[info]shleaf_fl wrote:
Feb. 22nd, 2008 06:00 am (UTC)
Wow. Not a writer or beta myself, I never knew so much goes behind writing a piece of fiction. Thank you for sharing your writing process. Now I have a new understanding and respect for both writers and betas behind a well-written fic.
[info]aiwritingfic wrote:
Feb. 22nd, 2008 06:08 am (UTC)
I have to hasten to say that this is only true for me! O_o I don't know how other writers do this. I know one writer I beta for, [info]ontogenesis, has a slightly different process from me. She thinks a lot more about her plot and characters before she even comes to me, and sometimes she just shows up with a few thousand words and goes, "Okay, your turn."

I'm a very conversational type of writer. I don't write in isolation. I've tried it, and I can't--I fail horribly when that happens. Like I said, this is my point of view from my side of the fence. ^_^ That's all.

Also, I have to emphasize that not all my fics get this treatment. ^_^;;; For example, Tohoku was very much a mostly-narrative-beta sort of fic. Caramel took a LOT of concept-beta-ing, but minimal narrative-beta. His Grandfather's Dragon was very much a mash that needed a lot of narrative work and scrutiny, but Promise was so short nothing much was changed after the first draft hammered out. (There was another one for the Dragons AU that came out to a draft of 1000+ words. It did not survive beta and died.)
[info]shleaf_fl wrote:
Feb. 22nd, 2008 06:47 am (UTC)
Yes, I know it's different for different writers =) There are some who seem capable of writing pretty much independently. But I haven't seen other writers describe their writing process in detail, so it was interesting to read about yours ^__^


I suppose that's only natural. Different types of fics have different emphasis and thus require different kinds of treatment. I'll be watching our for your next Dragons AU fic! >_^
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[info]macey_muse wrote:
Feb. 22nd, 2008 08:35 am (UTC)
I have one friend who beta's for me - the only thing she does is copy-edit and check my prose for really weird descriptions (argh Shindou's HAIR) & so-on. This is possibly because she is in Naruto and Phoenix Wright, and has never seen any Hikaru no Go at all. That's generally fine because, you know, I never write anything with plot. But it can get a little frustrating - I remember, when writing Dulce, going 'But is that IC? Would Hikaru really talk like that? Is Akari emo-ing too much' and she kept saying 'I don't know!'. I think, in the end, I had to beg in blind_go chat for someone to beta, on the day before posting, and even then there wasn't that much I could work with ¬.¬

So, yeah, my stuff's -prose- editted, but not-so-much beta'ed as you describe it.
[info]aiwritingfic wrote:
Feb. 22nd, 2008 09:23 am (UTC)
I can safely say that has been the most harrowing and frustrating thing about writing Nodame Cantabile fic--the lack of betas. [info]nutty_scribbler and I share mostly the same ideas when it comes to characterization, thank god, and so when I can I bounce things off her, and she does likewise. It's been slow going--my mind has been occupied by other fandoms, and I am starting to get into "the canon is too interesting, I'm too busy watching canon to write" territory.

*hugs* When writing Planeswalker, I basically had to rely on zero beta for characterization--or whatever my betas remembered of Hikago, which wasn't all that much. I think I remember putting out a call for help on the comm begging for betas, in the end, because I just couldn't get anyone on my f-list who was familiar with the fandom. (Now HnG writers are the most active commenters on my journal. O_o)

Now you have friends who will beta HnG for you though, right? <3 You know we're all friendly here.
[info]macey_muse wrote:
Feb. 22nd, 2008 11:30 am (UTC)
Yeah, but. I get nervous asking people - like you said, you know? My fifthmus-fic, well, I was only just getting to know y'all at that point. Then for Genius, well, you're the HikaGo-er I talk to most, and it was a present -for- you, so. XD next time! I shall ask! (watch me not write anything for the next year or so...)
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[info]moonsliver wrote:
Feb. 22nd, 2008 01:48 pm (UTC)
I tend to be very clear when I do write and want it beta'ed about what I expect from it. For fanfic...I rarely want to rework things, even though I know I should, and so I don't want to give someone that much input on them beyond the copy edit. Actually this might be why I write so many RP logs. >>; I don't have to rework them beyond grammar. I've gotten sooooooo lazy in fic~ Fanfic is supposed to be fun for me. If I'm going over it with a fine tooth comb, angsting about it, and making myself a stressball...?

Not. Fun. :\

There's also my argument that "my canon isn't your canon," and so I how see things being in fandom aren't the same as you or someone else might see them. I'm very open to interpretation and don't get very nitpicky over it. If I don't like X's version of character Y, it doesn't mean much to me beyond I don't like the way she writes Y, not that it's ooc (even though it may be, but I don't harp on that too much). I'm of the opinion, in fandom work, that no one can write strict IC but the creator him/herself, so who am I to judge? We don't know the inner workings that the creator had in mind when he made this detail or that relevant -- I'm still wtfWHY over Kamio tap-dancing, for instance; I can't get my own brain around it and as it doesn't suit the needs of my muses, will most likely ignore it. The same with things like siblings (doesn't fit my plot right now? Eh...chuck 'em. :D) and family (he needs an aunt...does he have an aunt? Huh, let's give him an aunt. :D) or sexuality (well, 40.5 says he likes 'pretty girls', but that doesn't mean he has to like like them, does it? ;D) I'm very liquid with character details when it suits my purpose. I don't mind mangling them for the greater purpose of the story, because in the end, that's what I'm here for. Not for the canon, which is interesting and usable, but only when it suits the story itself. If I want more canon, I'll just watch the series again.

Original stuff is easier to hard beta - fine tooth comb and all, imo -- because the writer is right there, I can sit on her and say "Wait...WTF? D:" Or have some sort of discourse about why I think it was supposed to be this when she wanted it to be that.

Edited at 2008-02-22 01:52 pm (UTC)
[info]aiwritingfic wrote:
Feb. 22nd, 2008 02:00 pm (UTC)
*laughs* Maybe my masochistic side is expressing itself any way it can. *facepalms*

I agree with you that no one can write canon, though I like to think people should try to get as close as possible. At the same time, I've been very admiring of different Tezukas before. I think that if I'm not happy with the way someone else writes any character, though, it is unlikely I will be able to do any beta-ing, even copy editing! OTL. Why am I so emotional? Canon details aren't as important as a general feeling of "rightness" that I really have no way to articulate (which is bad, because I'm supposed to be articulate, as a wannabe writer, right?)

*hearts you to pieces* I hope you don't regret this, because you've just signed yourself up as a permanent original!beta. ^_^ *nibbles on*
[info]moonsliver wrote:
Feb. 22nd, 2008 02:15 pm (UTC)
The rightness of the character is like...that core, little kernel that I recognize as "OH! That's...Y!" It's something about the personality, I think, but certain parts of the personality can be pushed a little further than others. (Kamio is a spazz with a temper, at heart; in some muses, the temper is predominant, in others the spazz. But then that only works if it's a teenage Kamio to me. A grownup one has a grownup persona, might have mellowed with age, might be more hardcore. Circumstances come into play then. As do exploring other aspects of personality that aren't shown in canon; what's his sense of humor like, what's it like when he kisses someone, what's the rest of his life -- and we don't see much of that in canon -- like? I guess, from the point of view of writing, the bulk of the canon characters outside of the main team -- and even then, some of the main team -- are rather flat to me, despite all the little bits of information that we've been given. We don't see that many major points of development for them, least of all outside of tennis, know about other life goals -- does everyone in the series want to be a tennis pro? They're only kids still, how can they be sure? -- or anything.) I think different takes are good, if only because they show me what to not do for myself.

...XD Oh dear~ But it is what I'm used to from classes and such. Maybe it will get me writing something again. XD;


[Stupid typos. D< *shakes fist*]

Edited at 2008-02-22 02:18 pm (UTC)
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